laroc

joebob2

Someone over there finally said "fuck it, let's make sure we're actually competent at supporting people" about two years ago. Now, it's not like they're ever going to get awards for being open about what the hell they do inside AdSense, but hey, you actually need good people in those positions, and now they have some.

So let me just say that whatever they're doing to get good people seems to be working, and I haven't seen huge turnover (fingers crossed).

tolles

LongAgoYahoo

Watch for my book, where I'll tear apart EMG as well :)

tengallonhero

I knew a number of people who were hired into engineering positions and then had their titles changed to *not* engineer once they arrived, or who were supposed to be programming, but instead answered emails.

Anyway, it's not necessary to hate on the people who hate their jobs at Google. I'm on the side of other commenters who've pointed out that it's more just like, "Take it from those of us who've been inside. It is a cool company with a lot to offer but it's largely turned into another traditional corporation run more by MBAs than innovation." That's all.

I left, a bunch of my friends left, a lot of commenters here have left... but plenty of people stay and plenty of people want to go. There's still a lot of cool stuff happening there, it just kinda depends on what class of citizen you end up being once you're there. A few years from now it'll probably just be another MS.

People keep pointing out that it isn't a new story, that this happens in companies all the time, so we shouldn't get upset about it. Except... that's exactly why it's sad. Not end-of-the-world-sad, more passage-of-time and worth-understanding sad.

jordanly

Well stated - this is why I always interview a company more than they interview me. The interview process is a window of sorts. If it's dysfunctional, that pretty much sums up the company as well.

I've personally walked out of interviews that were disrespectful or I was talking with idiots who couldn't answer my questions.

QADude

I think this will correct itself when the VPs that are strung out on IPO doobage finally wander off into the universe and real, live, hard-working VPs come in. Of course, those poor souls are gonna say,"Who was running this place and where are those retards now that there is actual work to do?"

WagCurious

Google has a pretty extensive hiring process, if you make it through all of those interviews and get hired and sign on to work there, all without managing to figure out what the hell you'll be doing, you're a fucking idiot who really should STFU.

Oh No I Di'n't.

bgj

Oh, in that case, sorry.

Perhaps it would be better for you to work at the local no-one-knows-who-you-are-or-who-you-work... without the gourmet meals, inline swimming pools, stock, resume candy, and possible opportunities to move elsewhere.

Are you fucking kidding me? Let me guess. It's your first job out of school.

Oh. I take it back: stfu and stop whining.

stupindus

jamar0303

Same thing happened at Y!. Working at Y! was cool when there were 150 of us. Working at Y! sucked when we got up to 3,500. I can't even even imagine how much working at Y! sucks with 14,000.

You want to define your own job, go work for a start up.

LongAgoYahoo

The scenario described perfectly articulates for me that Google is starting to arrive at its logical destination. It's a big business with a well established middle management layer, and it's from there that the rot has set in.

If we can assume for the sake of argument that the company was founded on idealistic and right-minded principles and intentions (don't be evil... yawn!), then we can assume that the initial hype and hoopla of Google was for real... but that was 10 years ago and we're a few Porsches and bazillionaires down the line since those heady days of engineers huddled around a great idea, snacking down pizza and turning earnest ambition into globe-straddling reality...

The policy of hiring MBA graduates and fast-track promoting them is guaranteed to incubate middle management mentality. These folks are typically intelligent and ambitious but narrow in their thinking and with the mindset that their MBA has guaranteed that they hit the ground with a "CEO of everything" skillset and attitude.

The problem is, and especially in a tech company where genuinely smart people tend to inhabit every nook and corner, that their models are kind of resented, and their lack of understanding doesn't tend to extend beyond the processes and procedures of running a business and into the actual hands-on expertise of what their company does and why it's successful. They are confident about process and very unconfident about the actual "product". Their approach to people is generally kind of the same, heavy on the principle but somewhat lightweight when it comes to managing people or resources with the deftness and finesse that a seasoned manager will demonstrate, I am generalising wildly and I don't doubt that exceptions abound... but bear with me.

I'm kind of battle-scarred from dealing with these Harv'tards these days and freely admit that I believe an MBA is a poor substitute for a personality, or for actual exerience, but throughout the tech industry we're seeing these theoretical geniuses pushed into roles where they actually can hire, fire and make decisions that have real impact upon real people with mortgages, kids, crushed dreams and broken spirits.

If you're going to work at a company like Google then "caveat emptor" applies to the max, applicants owe it to themselves to be satisfied that they're chasing a worthwhile dream (satisfy that contractually if you're really smart!). Anyone going to work at a company that utilises a middle-management layer should acknowledge that they are agreeing to work for folk that are either so insecure or so over-confident in the processes that their churc.... sorry, MBA college taught them that they will lock you into positions that THEY are comfortable with. This is the nature of a large organisation and you need to play it to your advantage if you want to earn your money by participating in this world.

No it's not fair, it's not a meritocracy and it's not something you can change... but for the name of Larry please cease the whining. If you're dumb enough to take and hold onto a job that is going to make you unhappy or resentful then you've already demonstrated that you're either unwilling or incapable of greatness... eat your slops and be quiet or get the hell out of there.

Love, kisses and code - /fire3500

fire3500

sggrf

I doubt that any company tells you that the job you're interviewing for is going to be crap.

cfinke

ScalaWag

Where would Marissa Mayer start a career today?

iCB

It is not like they have you sign a contract forcing you to stay, if you don't like it, find another job and leave.

If you can't find another job and is forced to work on that job, then maybe it's not google but you that sucks.

yawnster

They are often straight-out lies. Young programmers willing to take on less-than-"core"-engineering jobs are nonethless convinced (not by their own delusions but by well-trained pitches) that these tech teams promote innovation and independence. At the very least, the positions are design or programming positions.

Except then they aren't. They're just email-answering jobs.

Sure sure, "times are different" and "you're really not alone," but in the bajillion trainings done on Google campuses every day and in all its marketing to present itself as the one corporation that didn't lose its ideals when it exploded, surely they could do a better job NOT BOLDLY LYING to recruits.

All of that said, it still has havens of true engineering and brilliance, and even bitchworkers get to experience some (some) crazy perks, (some) stupendous guest speakers, and (lots of) awesome co-workers.

The perks *are* tiered based on position type, though. So they're classist, too, but at least ones that make sure everyone is well-fed.

jordanly

The time to get hired for "Marissa Mayers" career track right out of school is over. Google cannot give talent the jobs they deserve, hence the turnover. There is a long line to get any position of responsibility and joining Google out of school is not much different from Microsoft or IBM.

Time to call BULLSHIT on this idea that Google is a "different kind of company".

ScalaWag

Also, Naked Juice is not really better for you than Coke. It's all just water and sugar at the end of the day. :)

doubleyewdee

1. I am glad to see this article appear on VW for the sole purpose that it shows others that Google isn't magical and is like most other companies. Some people need reality checks when it comes to all these "amazing-to-work-for" companies.

2. Do research on roles before taking them. Every employer will be marketing new roles to try and attract the best talent for even the crappiest positions. If you can't read through the bullshit, then you probably found the right position. Don't be blinded by the company name.

jeratain

If you're top talent from a top school with an engineering degree you become a Google engineer. If you're top talent with marketing or business degrees you go to marketing or product or program management.

A junior Google engineer does not have it bad, nor does being a program manager.

But if you're "top talent" and you end up getting issued a phone headset? That's just Google's way of telling you're not Marissa Meyers.

Alaska Miller

Microsoft values it's employees heath so much they stock refrigerators full of both Coke and Pepsi branded sodas (including mountain dew, sprite, doctor pepper, etc). Bill Gates probably figures if he pays them junked up on caffeine and sugar, he will get more lines of code per hour.

Plus, those naive kids get to live in the valley of money. San Jose, the wealthiest city in the wealthiest country. All the shiny corporations! They're bound to find work, if not start their own venture.

growhappy

igneous

I know for many young engineers, Google seems like this great engineer daycare in the sky, where you can play in your sandbox all day and not have to worry about big people problems. Then the school bus comes takes you back home.

Times are different. STFU or go find a real job.

pepelicious