Valleywag
the relaxation of H-1B immigration quotas as an "innovation" issue, not the exploitation of a global labor market to depress wages, claims UC Davis computer science professor Norman Matloff. He attempts to present a quantitative case to demonstrate that foreign skilled-worker visas don't go to genius inventors but to average, entry-level employees, in a paper for the Center for Immigration Studies. But his methodology is flawed, and a racial undercurrent bubbles beneath the surface of his argument.
Matloff compared the ratio of the prevailing wage for positions to be filled by H-1B applicants and the wages paid to accepted immigrants, which he calls the "Talent Measure," or TM. For instance, under H-1B rules, applying companies must state a prevailing wage for the position they are trying to fill and prove that they can't find qualified American employees to work for that much. Companies must then pay accepted applicants at least that wage. So by definition, an H-1B immigrant will have a TM of 1.0.
Matloff's thesis rests on the idea that truly innovative workers would have a higher TM, as the competition for their talents should reward them accordingly if they are truly above-average applicants in the talent pool. To bolster his argument, he points to the disparity between the TM scores of Indian (1.01) and Chinese (1.05) applicants to those of Canada (1.12) and Germany (1.14).
Applicants from Asian countries are not necessarily more or less innovative than applicants from North America and Western Europe — but they are often willing to work for less than what Americans would consider for the same position. One of the ways that companies game the system is by stating a lowball prevailing wage, and then when no qualified citizens apply because the salary isn't competitive, it's easier for the company to demonstrate to officials that the market is demanding more foreign tech workers than the local labor pool can supply.
Where the paper veers off into latent racism is in Matloff's presentation of H-1B supporter arguments that suggest the American education system isn't producing enough science and math specialists — what he calls the "Johnnie can't do math" argument.
Even though it was mainly "Johnnie," rather than Arvind or Qing-Ling, who originally developed the computer industry, and even though all major East Asian governments have lamented their educational systems' stifling of creativity, the lobbyists have convinced Congress that the industry needs foreign workers from Asia in order to innovate.It's hard to take the rest of the paper seriously after that conclusion, which reminds me of anti-immigrant bias from the 19th century nativist movement. Rather than play on stereotypes, why not just state the obvious — the tech industry wants more visas because they pit labor from developing economies against first-world pay scales? That seems more accurate, and less noisome. (Photo from UC Davis)
Comments
wow. no offense to UC Davis, which I know is a great institution, but he would never get a job at my alma mater, Wharton, or any other tier-1 University. I wonder what his TM is.
Davis? You might as well be reporting news from Modesto.
I don't see where your conclusion differs from the professor's and the only stereotyping is his use of typical American names vs typical non-American names.
Nothing racial or ethnic about it: Our educational system used to be much better than it is now. The Chinese, Indian and other school systems improved while we were busy flushing ours down the toilet to please teachers unions. It will take a generation to turn it around once we start, but we show no sign of starting.
It's all about politics, not race.
Some might argue there's also a racial undertone to the pro-H-1B argument.
A coherent and insightful Jackson West article. Very well done. I'm officially going to stop giving you crap.
@jasonoliver: The University of Pennsylvania does not have a tier-1 computer science department.
+ Watch video
Half of the comments so far make snide remarks at some university not being of sufficient 'tier' to warrant consideration. I thought that such discussions take place at [thedirty.com], not here. And I used to think that Ted Dziuba is intelligent and level headed. My bad.
Critique his science, not his address.
Disclaimer: I used to be an H1b worker. I've also been a J1, F1 and L1b visa holder.
Matloff is a joke. His credentials have nothing to do with immigration. He's a computer scientist who should have stuck to his day job. But ever since the job market dried up when the bubble burst, he became an AM talk show staple to promote the good ole "American jobs should go to Americans" argument.
When the job market started doing better, we didn't hear much from him. But now that a recession seems to be looming and some big tech companies are laying off workers, the guy is back to counter Bill Gates and other proponents of raising the H1b cap and improving the standards of science education in the US.
Norman, it's not so much that Johnnie can't do math. It's that you can't do sociology and immigration reform.
@Arnaud H: Why "improving the standards of science education"? I propose getting rid of it. Lets get back to the state where all scientists were amateurs and part-timers: monk doing genetics, landlord doing physics, astrlogist doing astronomy on a sly after hours.
Why does every study lump every Chinese into Qing Ling, or every Indian into Arvind, or every US citizen into Johnie? This is stupid stereotyping, and any report that uses such stereotyping should be stereotyped as STUPID as well.
Just a single TM score means nothing, we need his sampling methodology and look at the range of TMs in every ethnic group he studied.
The professor was looking for some cheap publicity. He should have pretty rotten eggs thrown in his face.
@Spy from the Land of Rainpeople: I said what I said to jasonoliver because I thought he was being a hypocritical jackass, not because I agree with ranking universities.
Everyone knows most of h1b visas are used by tech companies to suppress wages. This guy is an idiot for injecting race into it.
This is the "science" behind his TM metric ([www.cis.org]), "I take as our Talent Measure (TM) the ratio of a worker's salary to the prevailing wage claimed by the employer."
So because Indian H1B's are willing to work for less, his 'metrics' assume they are less talented. This is scholarship? How does this guy have any credibility?
Did I misread his paper? Does anyone else have a justification for this measure?
After working many years in IT I can attest that Indians are just like whiteys: there are good ones and bad ones when it comes to job performance. Now Asians on the otherhand...they tend to mostly be on the "good" side of job performance.
Harry "not a racist" Wang
@Harry "not a racist" Wang: Indians are Asians.
I don't care if these "skilled-workers" are "geniuses" or not. What I care about is if they can understand me when I say, "Combo number two, with extra pickles and onions." If they can't, then kindly stay in whatever sh!thole country you're from, where you won't be able to mess up our culture and economic/social efficiency through your inability to communicate and integrate. We'll stick to verbally tangling with you through Dell Customer Service. You don't need to be here for that.
@Arnaud H: Technically you are true but both Indians (and their curry counterparts) and what most consider traditional Asians (formerly "orientals") do not like to include themselves in the same demographic.
Harry "evidentally some of my humor is lost on you" Wang
Pick the for'ners who speak English properly and articulately and automatically we'll get the smarter ones. Make that official policy and we're all set.
@Rachel Marsden: I'd rather them leave the pickle on my burger than have to sit through meeting after meeting on a big project with them asking them to send that to me in e-mail (since I cannot understand 90% of what is coming out of their mouths). Even if they are one of the most brilliant, there needs to be some consideration to how they can (or cannot) communicate with others within the organization.
Harry "that level of listening give me a headache" Wang
@Rachel Marsden: Your post at 9:13am came in while I was typing my reply (of 9:14am) to your earlier post of 8:57am...most of which now falls inline with our thinking.
Harry "what is with my typos today" Wang
Wow, the comments quickly veered away from Matloff's racism to our own. It didn't take very long to get everyone to go there, now did it?
@SnarkTard: Funny how a "racist" can almost always be defined as someone who's beating a liberal in a debate or argument like this one. I'm talking strictly about practicality, economic efficiency and cultural cohesion.
@FiveStarEggRoll: we learn to live, when we learn to give each other what we need to survive - together ALIVE o, ebony and ivory fit together in perfect harmony side by side on my iPiano, keyboard, OH LORD, WHY DON'T WHEEEEEEE?
Those who cry fowl over racist comments, even baiting ones, are naive to think they are some pure of heart individual. Racism, or prejudice in general, stems from opinions. Even generic opinions form the basis for bigger opinions that can lead to shades of bigotry. There is not one person on earth who is not prejudice in one way or another. There is not one person who has not paused on or reconsidered a thought or action due to their opinions (use your imagination here). No one is truly colorblind. It is a sad state of affairs but it is true.
I am not making an argument in support of prejudice. I am just arguing against those holier than thou arsewipes who demonstrate different levels of hypocrisy.
One should only try and live their lives with the respect and compassion they would want given to them. Unfortunately the human psyche is scarred by past experience. Humans, being fallable, will inadvertantly succumb to things we do not necessarily want to consider ourselves part of...slow, casual creation...blah, blah, blah...
Here is a somewhat racist remark I find amusing: What do you call a fat Chinese person? A chunk. I can laugh at it even though I am Chinese. I can also laugh at the "all Asians are good in math" stereotype too. I suck in math especially nowadays. If you cannot find humor and/or understanding in some of this then I feel for you. I am not saying hardcore Nazi types or such should be patted on the back but I understand some of the reasons why they continue to exist.
I don't know why I even bothered. This rant is like a raindrop falling into the ocean an innumerable number of times.
Harry "does not live in a fantasy world" Wang
@porterhouse125: "...justification for this measure?" Publish or perish, anything will do so long as one can scare some citations. That why I'm advocating total abolition of science education. USA could then redirect the effort to produce more native snarky journalists instead of having to import them from Canada.
>USA could then redirect the effort to produce more native snarky journalists instead of having to import them from Canada.
LOL. I don't know. We already have hit our quota of 1 on this thread when it comes to braindead racist commentators. Do we need more?
But again, will anyone debate the substance? This professor is basing his so-called Talent Measure....on salary!! Because there are people in India willing to take whatever they can get, because it beats the alternative back home, that means they are "less talented" according to Matloff's metrics. How can a guy who looks as nerdy as Matloff be so stupid?
"I'm talking strictly about practicality, economic efficiency and cultural cohesion."
Considering that the Indians and Chinese are more culturally cohesive than Europeans, would it not make practical sense to import a few hundred million each and thereby achieve both desired ends - economic efficiency (better math and coding skills) and cultural cohesion ( singaporean cuisine is a good benchmark of Indian + Chinese > Whitey Cuisine
"Because there are people in India willing to take whatever they can get, because it beats the alternative back home, that means they are "less talented" according to Matloff's metrics. "
Makes me wonder about the Talent measure of a few Indian Americans who went back to India for the experience. Their talent score must be like -5
@porterhouse125: Nowadays I think the merits of scientific research are: (1) how to produce funding, (2) how to generate incoming citations and (3) everything else. You think Matloff is stupid, but maybe only on the ternary category. He may be smartly heeding the primary and secondary categories that I mentioned above.
As to immigration from India, I think people in USA tend to miss other factor: escaping the caste system constraints. People from India will generally be very unwilling to discuss this, but frequently it is the real issue.
Comment%20on%20UC professor injects racism into H-1B debate I don't really see how that is racist. I don't agree with his overall conclusion about h1b's, but I'm not going to say he is racist because he is asserting that US citizens are 'good enough' based on prior innovation in the field. It's not a very scientific claim, but it's not racist. I mean, the dude is married to a Chinese immigrant, speaks mandarin and he has a biracial child. His comment only appears racist if you read it extremely un-charitably, and that is not how you should be reading it. For what it's worth I can tell you he is a good guy and a absolute top-notch CS prof.
I know a lot of people from India, have been to the country several times, and the issue of the caste system does not seems to be a significant issue at all, in terms of wanting to emigrate to the US. The caste system is largely non-functioning in major cities such as New Delhi and Mumbai; and its those cities which produce many of the H1B grads who come from IIT colleges.
I agree however with your points about the incentive for professors to publish, whether or not they have anything scholarly or sensible to say.
@porterhouse125: Good thing you added "in terms of wanting to emigrate to the US" to that statement.
Harry "was in disbelief at first" Wang
@porterhouse125: Ill take your word for it, I'd never been to India. And my Indian friends were more from the arts, not sciences.
Besides, when talking about H1B we aren't talking about "emigration to the US." We should be talking more about "getting a temporary respite" and "sampling the grass on the other side of the fence." My Indian friends were definitely not the type that wanted to "leave India behind them."
Thanks again for correcting my perception.
Learning a second language in one's life time improves one's IQ. Almost all 'Arvind's know atleast 3 langugages which is rare among 'Johnnie's in US. As a solution to hatred of US in rest of the world for not respecting their sovereignities and quoting lies to steal oil, wage wars, destroy civilizations, so that US and its people improve their awareness of the world & respect world civilizations, I suggest 'Johnnie's to learn atleast a second language to fluency in their life times, (if not 3 languages as 'Arvind's do).
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