You did it, Jackson! [Unsarcastic] props from the libertarian commentard.

Anytime someone fluffs their feathers about plug-in hybrids, I have to step in and rant a bit. This one will be short: unless those plug-in batteries are exclusively charged by solar cells or freaking windmills, they are MUCH worse for the enviroment than the regular hybrids. Why? Coal plants, silly.

And yep, I drive a NON plug-in hybrid.

ah, yes - they're very smug compliant. since Pious smacks of South Parl plagarism.

still funny though.

We have to remember that the electricity comes from somewhere. Alternative power sources provide only a tiny fraction of our power.

It would be so nice to have decent, clean and viable (meaning it would work for most people) public transportation system. Our politicians won't do it though.

@Fidel on the Roof: Public transportation is in a chicken and egg dilemma. Spending money to improve something with such a small market share is risky, but it won't get more riders without improvements.

Oh yeah, I want this paint job on a Hummer H1.

Yeah it depends where you live, if the electricity comes from hydro or something clean, good for you, but if it's coal then you're not helping much. Also lead acid batteries from an electric car put 50 times more lead into the environment than driving a car 100,000 miles using leaded gas. Depends on what kind of batteries they use of course.

@OaklandTechie: I understand that coal plants seem super-evil because of how much nasty stuff they put in the air, but here's the thing: Generating energy from that tiny little gasoline engine in your car is orders of magnitude less efficient than generating energy at a power plant. Depending on what level of filtering is done by the coal plant, it's possible that you're polluting more on a per-watt basis by using your gas engine.

The estimates I've seen are that if more than 80% of your power comes from coal, you're better off with your tiny engine. Last I read, 18% of CA's power came from coal.

@OaklandTechie:
The thing is CA is not primarily coal powered. The US is 49% coal powered. But it's not the plug-in's fault that our powerplants are polluting: it's the powerplant's fault. Coal plants don't discriminate: using it for anything will pollute. Coal is one of the largest source of pollution in the US. We should adopt plug-ins while cleaning up our grid. I hate when people suggest we shouldn't adopt plug-ins b/c coal pollutes; even if we start today, by the time we adopt a significant amount (5%), it will be 5-10 years along the road; a majority will probably take 20 or more years. And if our fleet ran on the grid, then our focus on lowering pollution will turn to the grid: which is a very GOOD thing since it represents an even larger source of pollution than cars.

Don't think you are the only one who brings it up too; EVERY single time there is discussion about PHEVS or EVs there will be a person that screams "COAL! COAL! plugins & EVs are horrible!" and we get that much more compelled to stay with the status quo. Don't forget the offpeak energy and the other 51% of US generation either; which tend to be much cleaner than coal. At least with plug-ins we have some chance of tapping into completely renewable energy: with a hybrid you will NEVER have that chance. With PHEVs/EVs I'm not so much worried about the power source (if we don't find a way to clean our grid, even without ANY PHEVs/EVs we would be in deep sh*t); I'm more worried about the source of materials for the battery. Not toxicity, mind you, since the li-ions used in most PHEVs/EVs today are non-toxic and landfill safe, only private conversions tend to use lead-acid; I'm more worried if there is enough material to satisfy large demand for PHEV/EV batteries.

@gildorn:
I generally agree with your point. I think the stats are that with 100% coal, then an EV turns out to be marginally better than a conventional car factoring the whole life cycle including batteries. SO2 seems to be higher though. But hybrids in general do tend to pollute a lot less then conventional cars, so with a large majority of coal production, the environment is better off with hybrids. With natural gas, EVs are about 20% worst. With hydro, on the other hand, EVs are about 2x less polluting than hybrids again factoring in everything including battery manufacturing.

[www.ilea.org]

To decide if a PHEV or EV is right for you, you can use this zip code tool to find the source of your energy:
[www.epa.gov]

My area uses only 13% coal, so I'm a good candidate. Worst place by far is West Virgina which had 97% coal generation for dec 2007. One thing to watch out for is oil produced electricity, which has the worst efficiency though I'm not sure if it's the worst pollution. But it usually only makes up a very small percentage: 1.6% for the US average.

The tool also lists lbs/MWh of NO2, SO2, CO2 so you can do your own estimation of how much your plug-in will pollute by knowing how many kWh it takes to charge it, and how far it can go on that charge.

I think that there are a few big factors that are often ignored when the PHEV or EV vehicles are claimed to be more polluting:

1. How much U.S. electricity does is used to refine crude oil?

2. How much fuel is used to create and transport that fuel in oil tankers, big trucks, oil rigs.

3. How clean most coal power plants are now, there are some on the east coast that are pretty bad, but most of them burn pretty clean now because of government regulation. Not that I'm promoting coal power far from it.

So when you start to look at the bigger picture eletric has some big advantages

non-plug-in Prius vs BMW 5 series -

[driving.timesonline.co.uk]

@stopcrazypp: Or, we should be focusing on switching to Nuclear. Not a popular opinion, but it is WAY cleaner than coal. Yes, there is a byproduct, but at least it's containable and known -- not a massive plume of smoke into the atmo. Take a look at how Europe has developer their Nuclear infrastructure over the last 20 years...

LOL! Google is getting into the 'green' act. But maybe, just maybe they really care for the environment, want to lower emissions and their carbon footprint? [www.zapworld.com]

@stopcrazypp:
Comment on Google's plug-in hybrids to increase Bay Area smug levels Thank you thank you. I was getting all fired up about the ignorance about coal and was about to type up a big reply on my iPhone here... Then I saw your reply. Bullseye dude. Tyler on iPhone

Sold the 2007 Prius recently as to not get stuck with it when the newer (2009?) 'enhanced' edition comes out.

I could get 51mpg out of it if I drove to piss others off. Otherwise low 40s.

Harry "hates giving oil moguls money" Wang

S.F. just spent $20k per to convert some Priuseses to plug-in hybrids.

It would SO much better if Toyota could just build a plug in hybrid on its own.

I have been driving a Plug-In hybrid that gets over 100mpg for about a year now and I use Clean Domestic Wind Energy to offset the amount of Dirty Foreign Oil I use. How many Coal plants do you think were made in the past five years as compared to the number of Wind turbines that have been put up? Now how many Plug-in cars do you think will hit the road tomorrow? Let's face it; Plug-In cars will take decades before they ever remotely impact pollution levels coming out of coal plants. Most people will figure out that they can make electricity from the roof of there home long before they have to buy it from someone else. That money that is not spent on foreign oil stays in the consumers' pockets and then is spent in their local economies, and that helps broaden their local tax base. Plug-In cars are good for the environment, our lungs, your wallet, our economy, and our national security. Oh and if you want a Hummer Plug-in that gets over 100mpg, they can be made right now. You don't have to give up anything except being a slave driving to a store to purchase fuel the rest of your life when electicity is already pumped into your house. Hey Plug-ins won't work for everyone, so if they won't work for you then I guess, it sucks to be you.

Hey fake-journalists, can you tell me if the massive solar array at the Googleplex is just for decoration, or if it's powering the PHEVs? Or, can you give numbers on the "cost per person-mile to that of Google's private commuter bus fleet" etc.?

I smell a non-story.